Thursday, June 28, 2012
From an Amarr
I was moderating some comments when a comment from Cearain popped up. I thought it justified more specific responses, so I’m going to post it here. My responses will be in red.
Let me follow han's advice and not talk in terms of groups be they "bitter amarr vets" "Fweddit FWodder" or "minmatar." There are issues that everyone who has been playing this game can readilly see:
Fweddit FWodder? Wow, I had not yet heard that one. That just seems mean…
1) The plexing is not sufficiently pvp centered. I have been pushing to have this addressed for years. I kept getting the response that once plexing has consequences people will fight over them. Well now finally people are realizing that is not really the case. There are many proposals that will help on this issue. Timer count down if you get kicked from a plex. Also notifications of who enters or exits plexes so players can react. Etc.
Yeah, me and Hans have gotten into huge discussions about this. We both agree that the whole *point* of plexes should be pvp.
I noticed a huge influx of pvp in plexes right around Inferno, but then it seemed to taper off again after that point…
What do you think about reducing the ‘circumference’ of the button –ie: instead of 10K, 20K, and 30K make it 5K, 10K, and 15K, and then significantly shortening the distance between the button and the warp-in? Say 20K-30K between instead of 50K-80K.This would make speed tanking harder, since you would have to stay within a tighter space, and it would greatly increase the risk of people coming in and being able to more easily and quickly point you. (Instead of having to boat 70K to even get to you, by which point most people can just run away…even if they’re in a bigger ship…)
2) Plexing for minmatar is much easier than for amarr.
To be honest, I’ll have to take your word on it. Even in the year I was in Amarr I never did one plex!
If speed tanking wasn’t an issue would this still be true? Would it still be harder to run the plex normally?
And why is it harder? Because of the weapons they use, or something else? Have you noticed any difference since they removed ewar?
Lets fix these 2 issues and faction war will be much much better. I think very few who follow this blog would not agree these two things are problems.
Now other issues have been raised and I think there is considerable disagreement on these issues:
1) Whether goons helped minmatar very much. Some help yes but not much. Minmatar can easilly get the @6 mill lp needed to bring them from tier 1 to tier 5. They will likely do this again. They don't need to stay there long. Just long enough to cash out their lp!
2) Whether amarr can come back. I think we can due to the no lp for defensive plexing rule. However amarr are simply not employing strategies to use that rule to our advantage. We keep flipping systems right next the minmatar bases and feeding them lp! This is dumb and we have no one to blame but ourselves.
The caldari seem to be much more organized and frankly smarter from a occupancy plexing perspective. Amarr got this idea of defending some sort of "pipeline" early on. Nothing is being piped through this pipeline because eve mechanics don't work like world war 1. But nonetheless old strategies seem to die hard.
I think the Amarr can come back too. And I think that employing some smarter strategies could very well be a big part of doing that. It will be interesting to see what happens. =)
3) Whether the lp disparaty is too large. I tink it is not too large. Given that no lp for defensive plexing is given the amarr could easilly turn the tables on the minmatar by not actually taking systems but leaving them vulnerable. This is what we see caldari and gallente doing. And yes its because they are smart about plexing.
After the amarr get the upper hand then minmatar will be able to flip it back. And this flip flopping is how all people in faction war will be able to afford top notch ships and fittings to continue the war. These large rewards gives us reason to plex and to defend plexes. (note by defend plexes I do not mean defensive plexing. I mean fighting enemies who try to plex in your space)
Interesting perspective. I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree with the whole defensive plexing. I think the fact we have less systems to LP for ISK in condenses our ‘farmers’ and makes it easier for us to take systems in the long run.
However, if the Amarr simply refuse to take a bunker and leave something vulnerable, I’m not really sure how the Minmatar would respond, so you may be onto something where that’s concerned. They can barely be asked to defensively plex in systems they live in let alone other places…so…it could be interesting…
4) Station lockouts. IMO this was stupid and remains stupid. And yes it is annoying to hear hans or even fweddit say its no big deal. Neither was effected by this change! As far aw I know fweddit is still based outside faction war and they have no idea how great it was from a pvp perspective to have the stations open thoughout the warzone. Lockouts simply makes it harder for the side with fewer systems to field pvp fleets.
For a casual gamer like me who will never again base out of faction war unless ccp undoes this rule it is not at all a reason to fight. I don't care if kamela falls from a docking perspective. Tuomuta is right next to it and I used to base out of there anyway. I still have a bunch of stuff there in fact. However not being able to reship in frerstorn or arzad sucks and has cost me plenty of fights. It has also made the war zone blob up in and around kourm. I would love to see the percentages of fw pvp that take place in all the fw systems in april compared to june. I think you will find the pvp was much more spread out in april with lots of small gangs rolling througout the faction war zone. People who just joined faction war after inferno simply didn't get a chance to understand how great that was.
Okay, okay. I also haven’t thought of it as a big deal, but then again I didn’t have to move, and I haven’t yet been gotten locked out of anything important.
When push comes to shove, I’m not sure I care either way about the station docking issue at this point. While I think it’s interesting to have some sort of home court advantage in your own home systems, I also like the idea of facilitating small gang pvp by not creating a system that polarizes people into certain systems, as you are saying. I’m going to have to think that one over for a while.
Also, thanks for your comments Cearain. I don’t always follow your logic, and I don’t always agree with you, but I do appreciate discussion on game mechanics and responses to various ideas.
EDIT: Adding a link to Pinky's Blog who responds to the topics.
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Wow, an actually thoughtful and productive discussion. Nice.ReplyDelete
I agree. I wrote a response here.Delete
Pinky I would respond to your blog but you don't let anonymous post and I don't have any of the accounts you require.Delete
same. no way to post on your blog, pinky.Delete
I will respond to this from pinky's blog tho:Delete
"I completely think the winning side should have rewards for their hard work. But as far as breathing new life into the losing side, if i'm a new player without outside means to fund my PVP why would I ever want to join the Amarr?"
It is a little off now to say, since fw is in fact a good source of income, but for a long time, pvp did not pay the bills. I mean, where in all of eve do you make isk by pvp? Even now, unless you are a solo master, you don't really make much lp and therefore is through pvp. Plexes and missions in fw make bank (for the winning side) but both of those things are mostly pve with a risk of pvp that is usually not realized. I don't know, but I didn't join fw to make isk and for the longest time many guys including myself would take a week off from the war zone every now and t hen to go make some isk. I guess all I am saying is, that is nothing new. FW pilots have forever basically needed an outside way to fund their pvp; and in fact, all of the eve playing community has to have outside funds to pay for pvp. That is simply because you lose ships and isk in pvp, you don't make it. So nothing has changed much on that front.
Overall, if you are joining fw for isk, then you are joining for pve opportunities, not for pvp. And yeah, for those people joining a winning side makes a ton more sense. So does leaving that side should they every start to lose and switching to the new winner.
I'd also say something about the statement that EvE is a min/max game. In my opinion, min/maxing is a game play style, not a game design philosophy. One does not HAVE to min/max in eve, and not everyone does; hell, I don't. So if you are the type that wants to min/max all the time, you probably do so in all the games you play (or most at least, especially ones that are not single player). My guess from your blog post, Pinky, is that you are a min/maxer, and that affects your outlook and opinion of how eve should be made and handled. But there are other people and other ways of doing things that are just as valid.Delete
" EVE is a game about min/maxing and why would you want to fit out a proper ship to run plexes or do it in a group when you can do it solo in a cheap toon you don't care if you lose and make more ISK doing it for another side."
That's the statement I am referring to. There are many reasons someone might want to fit a ship to fight the rats in a plex and run said plex with a group of people. Heck, that's exactly what I do when I go plexing or missioning. We talk on comms and have a good time not playing alone. We kill the rats and take the tags, etc. I don't have an alt. Not one for plex farming, not one for hauling, none. Because I am not a min/max type player. That type of thing is not fun to me; it's work and I don't play eve to grind, I am just having fun. And fun comes with flying in a group, relaxing and achieving some game goal while we do it (for me). Is it the most LP-isk per hour played? Nope. Do I care? Nope. So I hope you understand that your complaint is only valid for you and the segment of the population that is like you, not for everyone, or for EvE as a whole, or for CCP. From the sounds of it, I would have been fine in the amarr fw, since all the problems with plexing are basically negated by my own play style that does not focus on min/maxing. Too bad my corp is RP minmatar :P
It seemed to me that the amarr plex rats that neut were just as bad/dangerous as the minmatar target paining ones. But no missiles on top does/did make a difference I suppose. Still, you could not speed tank if you had no cap, so it was never as easy to solo plex without killing rats (particularly for non min/maxers :P) as it sounds like. Much like soloing lv 4 missions in a stealth bomber, it's actually harder than people make it out to be.
It kind of sounds like the problem with the amarr fw game play was that the max of the min/max ability was not as high as the max was for minmatar. But that the sides are/were pretty well balanced for a balanced or casual play style.
"Much like soloing lv 4 missions in a stealth bomber, it's actually harder than people make it out to be.Delete
It kind of sounds like the problem with the amarr fw game play was that the max of the min/max ability was not as high as the max was for minmatar. But that the sides are/were pretty well balanced for a balanced or casual play style."
I had been in Amarr militia pretty much since my 1st character was four months old.
Until inferno I never had any intention to put an alt in minmatar militia. But then the huge isk advantages forced an "adapt or die" decision. So I put an alt in to run missions.
People said they can run missions solo in a bomber but I really didn't believe them. You can't do this for the amarr. I had people I knew switch militias because they said it was easier to run the missions,(before inferno) but whatever I had a system with a speed tanker (or a drake) to run amarr missions and would only have to warp out every now and then. I would also die sometimes but thats ok.
Then I put my alt in minmatar to start running missions and I was simply amazed. I couldn't believe how easy it was.
The difference is huge. Again I will just say I am not surprised that the factions with the easiest rats are winning.
i guess i could make an alt and put it in amarr to try some missions just to see what you mean... I mission in a drake, i have to warp out sometimes. I've lost two or three ships soloing lv 4s. I can't reliably do them in a sb. So it all SOUNDS the same, but at least you have done both and still say the minmtar missions with amarr rats are easier. wish i knew how. seems like a drake would do it the same either way. heck laser weapons hurt a drake more than projectile/missile rats... is it just increased dmg from target painting being worse that losing cap when neuted?Delete
Drake may not be a good ship to run minmatar missions. I haven't tried because em and thermal is the drakes naturally lowest resist. Plus I don't think kinetic is a good damage type to use against minmatar. I have gotten a drake to work pretty well for amarr missions because of the damage types dealt by the rats and the damage dealt by the drake.Delete
For minmatar in a sb you want to keep some transversal and I use an ab fit. I do use a shield buffer because you will occasionally get a stray shot. Usually I can ride it out by but rarely I have to warp out. Mainly the uproot mission is the one that gives the most problems. I also never take the missions where you have to grab something and return it.
One of the frustrating things for amarr (and I imagine gallente) is when minmatar (or caldari) tell everyone how the rats are no big deal or minimize their importance when they really don't know.
Bolster bob (caldari) gives his guide to faction war on eve-o saying all factions plexes can be soloed in a pvp bc. Well they can't if you are amarr. Mutnin (again caldari) says he can run amarr level 4 missions solo in a stealth bomber without a speed tanker. But when pushed for the fit he balks. Fact is you can't run them solo for amarr. People keep repeating this BS but others like myself who have actually run the plexes and missions know differently.
Now yes I agree there is some tact involved. I am not the greatest at pve but I am not that bad either. I know allot of people who stopped running amarr missions because they were losing bombers even when there was a speed tanker. It can happen even from the later spawns that kick in like from "the dead men tell no tales" mission. So there is some amount of doing it wrong.
But those who make this claim should be able to explain how to do it right. Give a fit of how to do it and basics of what to do. If they can't do that then I chalk it up as them just lying in order to support their BS claim.
It kind of sounds like you said drake is good for amarr lv 4s, then you said you can't do all of them with a pvp bc. Dead Men Tell no Tales is a good example of a mission I always turn down. It is the only one with rats that scram you that I can think of. But still, with enough warping in and out, I would think you can do the missions in a bc solo.Delete
For a sb strategy, I used what you say before. Ab fit buffer bomber (hound sucks for minmatar missions because it's bonus to exp torps is useless. purifier is best for minamtar to use, ironicly) But I still got blown up every now and then, so I stopped. I use a drake, avoid a couple different missions, and have no problems doing lv 4s. Ok back to sb. I have heard that mwd fit and use javelin torps because you can hit out to close to 100km. Apparently this makes it much safer to solo missions in a sb... but I have not tried it myself since the bc (yes I have a warp disruptor, so that's a pvp fit in my book :P) works fine. I've even used triple rep myrms to run lv 4s just fine. Consumes cap booster tho, so I don't prefer it.
Basically the missions where you have to blow up a structure (main reactor, tower or stargate are the ones I can remember) suck solo. If you plan on killing all the rats, I suppose it works, but otherwise it takes too long to kill the structure to tank all the damage for most fits. But you can simply turn down those missions and only take the ones where you have to kill the commander. 90% of the time for me, a pvp drake (people us sb, vagabond, sfi too - tho obviously speed is more the tank in those where as drake or myrm just absorb the dps) can tank the other rats well enough to kill the commander without warping out until it's done. The missions to kill industrial are in the middle. I usually have to warp out once just to recharge shields simply because there are 4 or more targets to blow up and it take some time. So it's pretty easy to run 4s solo in my opinion, just because you can be selective about what missions to take. The standings hit for turning down missions (after the first) is very very small, so I don't worry about it.
The people I know that say they solo all the missions in a sb really easy and it's never a problem actually use two accounts to do it. Warp in speed tanker who takes aggro and flies fast out 140 km plus. I don't think the rats missiles hit out there either, so the speed tanker never takes any damage and I think this is the case no matter what race's missions you are doing. Then they have a dps ship that comes in and just kills the target without taking any aggro, so it dosen't matter what sort of tank it has. Yes, missions have rats that spawn the middle of the mission. The dps ship warps off and the speed tanker gets the new aggro and then the dps ship comes back. This is what those people are calling really easy. Of course it isn't even possible without two accounts and I still would not call it solo. But yeah, people I have pressed for what they actually do when they stay it is super easy to solo any mission say that's how it goes. And I don't see why it would not be the same for all races. Npc missiles don't have unlimited range, after all.
That being said, the idea that any lv 4 fw mission can be soloed in a pvp bc, like a buffer cane, is just flat wrong. If someone is making the claim that a buffer brawler bc (common in pvp) is soloing all missions with ease, they are lying. The drake has a chance with high regen and high resists, but it still warps out some, and has trouble with the structure missions (slow work is the main trouble). This is the case for minmatar for sure, since I do them, but it seems reasonable for all of them.Delete
Oh, I guess I take for granted that I have 100m+ sp and high tanking skills and weapon skills etc. I bet for a low skill point, newer pilot, most missions are noticeably harder, even in a drake. Having all the passive shield resistance skills to 5 and the missile damage sills too, really makes a difference, I would think.
You have two point 2)'s up there that could do with fixing.ReplyDelete
The removal of ewar seems to have made it easier but I've not been in any plexes solo so maybe to early for me to say for sure.
And could you work on the blog to give a style sheet option to change the colouring or could you drop the red text? I really struggle to read the text.
“What do you think about reducing the ‘circumference’ of the button –ie: instead of 10K, 20K, and 30K make it 5K, 10K, and 15K, and then significantly shortening the distance between the button and the warp-in? Say 20K-30K between instead of 50K-80K.This would make speed tanking harder, since you would have to stay within a tighter space, and it would greatly increase the risk of people coming in and being able to more easily and quickly point you. (Instead of having to boat 70K to even get to you, by which point most people can just run away…even if they’re in a bigger ship”ReplyDelete
I think this feeds too much into the traditional “hunter vs hunted” view of pvp. I am not buying guns to roam around for hours looking for a deer to shoot. I have guns so I can jump right into the war and fight pilots who think they are ready to fight me. I am not in faction war to try to catch and gank pve ships. I don’t have anything against people who do that – I guess. Certainly not personally, and I will of course kill a mission runner if given the opportunity, but really it’s not my thing.
I don’t mind that a merlin warps off when I come in a minor in a hookbill. He should warp off. (now watch me lose a hookbill to a merlin) I don’t want faction war to be about those sorts of ganks. I want people to come with ships they think they can win with, and well let’s see who wins.
So in general I am not in favor of mechanics that will simply force people to fight fights they know they can’t win just because they “got caught.” In that regard I also don’t want mechanics where I have to be spamming my d-scan constantly either so I don’t get caught. I mean sure I check it allot now and you have to sort of pay attention now. And I think that the current mechanics are fine.
I really think there is a good chance ccp would solve the alt plexing problem if they did 2 things:
1) just notify us where, by who, and ship class, when plexes are entered and left.
2) If an enemy lands on grid or on grid of your accel gate within 15 seconds of you warping off then the button will start counting down to zero again. Your enemy doesn’t need to stay there.
These two things would drastically cut the efficiency of alt plexing. It is likely that they would become a thing of the past. I know I would be watching that militia channel and simply running from one fight to the next. It would be nice if the channel that gave that information had a link to the system so you could immediately set the destination.
Militias could divide up and cover certain areas or zones. If your militia was shorthanded near say lulm maybe someone covering the cluster around frerstorn could come down to help. You would need to make decisions of how you are going to allocate the pilots you have active. It would add a whole new layer of tactics to eve. But of course if you don’t want to do that you still wouldn’t have to. We could still have huge fights at gates or on stations. It’s just that faction war would open up a whole new type of smaller scale frequent pvp.
The third thing I think ccp should do is address the npcs. In my experience they have blocked pvp far too often. And I can only think of one time where I actually got pvp because of them. That’s why in general I want npcs to play a very limited or even non-existant role.ReplyDelete
Let me answer your questions as best I can.
“If speed tanking wasn’t an issue would this still be true? Would it still be harder to run the plex normally?”
Yes it would still be true I believe. Even when people are in bigger ships they seem not to be taking as much damage as my ships take when I am fighting minmatar. I think the big issue is whether the npcs shoot missiles.
If the amarr npcs = another frigate on the field Minmatar npcs seem to equal another cruiser on the field.
Is that a big deal? Well it depends on the number of people in the fight. If there are 40 players fighting then no it doesn’t matter if there is an extra cruiser that much. If there are only 2 or 3 players fighting then it’s a big deal. But essentially if you are getting an extra cruiser to help every plexer fight and the amarr are only getting an extra frigate – well in plexing where you are better off spreading out and capturing as many as you can with the players you have active it’s a big deal.
“And why is it harder? Because of the weapons they use, or something else? Have you noticed any difference since they removed ewar?”
I think its because of the missiles. The Gallente have it tough as well because the caldari use missiles. I haven’t done them after the ewar was removed and I do hope the removal of the target painters will help allot.
I have never done a plex for minmatar. My basis for saying that is based on the ships I see in the minmatar plexes and comments from people in minmatar who keep saying the rats are irrelevant. I have gone in allot of plexes for amarr. And I can tell you these are my observations (all of my observations are before the change to ewar.):
Minor plex: rats aren’t a problem unless they all spawned and you are in some sort of armor buffer t1 frigate. Really this isn’t a problem.
Medium plexes: Well if you stay on top of the rats you can do these with a caracal. You can also do these with some amarr afs. But shield ruptures with an ac fit was difficult. Cynabal could do them no problem. But if you want to fly a t1 cruiser with 1600 plate fit you are out of luck. IMO those are some of the best pvp fits for t1 cruisers. I often had too much trouble in my shield rupture but sometimes I was ok. It depended how many rats had spawned. If I started the plex in it I usually would often have to do a few warp outs.
Gated Majors: are a very limited number of “pvp” ships you can use in the gated major plexes. Basically a heavy missile drake of gtfo.
Ungated majors: I never could do those even in a pve battleship. But I never really tried to do them in a pve battleship with my main. I can’t do them in a drake with my main though. My pve alt couldn’t do them in a pve dominix.
To the extent the rats are playing a role the people who need to fight them will need to adjust their fits fro them. This will not only likely gimp their ships but also give their enemies a better chance at guessing how they are fit.
Here is my proposal on how ccp should deal with the npcs (assuming they don’t just get rid of them which I think they could do if they gave us a notification system):
You suggest putting the dot closer to the warp in in plexes, while that would help a little, people will figure out how to put their dscanner to 150.000km quick enough and nothing will ultimately change.ReplyDelete
Simplest solution would be that if you leave the PLEX (or cloak or move over say 100km away from the button) the button simply resets to 0. That means that if you don't fight you LP/hour efficiency goes to shit. And if you want to hurt farmers you need to go for their wallet.
"blah blah woof woof"ReplyDelete
- Jimmy Hendrix
So in a nutshell, Amarr crys a lot.ReplyDelete
Its not just amarr. Its everyone who clearly sees that plexing has little to do with pvp.Delete
Caldari has more vp than both amarr and minmatar combined. Yet they have fewer kills than either!
Lots of people want faction war to be about pvp not about who can shoot more red crosses. And they are in all the militias.
I think station lock out has to remain as long as defensive plexing gives no lp. The only reason I defensive plex is because I have ships in the system and I want to be able to dock there. It looks like FW is moving to a system where you let your control level stay low and then at one time many people dump lp in to raise to teir 4 or 5 and the militia cashes out. In a system like that, who holds any one system dosent matter. At the moment, the only reason to care if you hold any given system is so you can dock there if you want.ReplyDelete
I don't agree with susan that no lp for defensive plexing will make taking systems easier by concentrating our ratters. It makes defending systems easier too, and those two things balance out.
So to me, if you get rid of station lock out then you have to give lp for defensive plexing. Otherwise no one would (or should) ever defensive plex.
Have you ever thought about what the minmatar would do if we were in the amarr's situation of having very few systems? Our closest main high sec gate is amamake/ossogur and it is a pirate paradise. Amarr don't have 'tics camping touamota gate! Plus, the amarr have multiple fairly nearby high sec entrances. We have to go through amamake or what? come down from hek? like 20 jumps to where the fights are? At least you have many high sec options to base out of that are near the front lines. Minmatar do not. I guess there is egg/gallente high sec that is close... but it is also camped by pirates at least sometimes. If the tables turn enough, I can scarcely imagine the level of whine and cry it would come to.
To reiterate, station lock out is pretty much the only REAL consequence of FW. The LP store prices matter, but in a world where people spike tier to cash out, it's not a huge factor. In a balanced war both sides could hold t3 and get average payouts. With no station lock out, there is no reason to take systems. Both sides sit at 3, equilibrium, and nothing has changes - its just like pre-inferno. Station lock out is real. If you want ships in arzad, take arzad. If we want ships there, we have to hold it, LP or no LP.
I was skeptical about station lockout, and I am afraid of losing access to the stations I have ships in. That hasn't happened yet and I actually care about not losing those systems. It matters more than LP payouts, etc. There is no good high sec for me to base out of and still be able to fight. Damalin, really? I can see hating it if I was on the losing side (tho I still maintain it would be worse for minmatar to lose station access in the whole wz than it would be for the amarr) but I guess that's what makes it a consequence! There are other ways to make isk in eve. FW LP is not even the best/fasted way (tho it's way up there if you have t5) but there is no substitute for being able to dock/reship in the war zone. It matters, and fighting over it is about the only real consequence FW has atm.
I very much disagree with you.Delete
The only reason you plex in the system you LIVE in is because you can dock there. What about the 55+ other systems the Minmatar owns? Do you defensively plex those systems?
How does no LP for defensive plexing make defending systems easier? Especially in the 99% of systems we don’t live in?
I agree if you get rid of station lock out there would be no need to defensively plex my home system. The other systems I do not live in, there’s no reason for me to plex now, as things are. Which is what I’ve been saying for weeks…
Station docking is by far not the only real consequence FW has at the moment. In fact, it’s practically inconsequential, in my opinion, compared to the LP store.
Ask an Amarr if having X4 LP store prices doesn’t suck. Ask them if they’re fighting to gain a foothold to make their LP worth something again….or if their real motive is to have a station to dock in? I’ve yet to see the Amarr take a system and then move in.
I disagree, Susan. I been in FW a long time and my isk income wasn't based on LP store prices for most of that time. You don't need the LP store to make isk. You just don't. You DO need to dock in a station to switch ships/reship/get ammo etc. And travel time to do those things really matters. LP for income is nice and 4x vs 1/4x is a big multiplier, but it is not the only way to make isk and therefor is not the biggest of deals.Delete
And the amarr took lamaa and moved ships in. Did they move out of kam? No. but they have ships in lamaa too. If the amarr take arzad, some of them will move ships there and our pilots who keeps ships there will not be able to dock and use those ships. Plus, docking is a safe way to run away if you are outnumbered and it is the easiest way to repair ship and mod damage. So docking in a system even if you don't have ships there is valuable and in the right situation, it is the only thing that might help you. LP to isk ratios are nice but they are never the only solution for making isk. You don't think that if the amarr take kourm that none of them would put ships there, do you?
When I said that no lp for defensive plexes makes defending systems easier, I probably should have worded that better. If our plexers are concentrated in a few systems that give lp, then defending those systems is concentrated and thus easier too.. They balance out.
They bigger point was that if station lock out does not exist, then I don't care if the amarr take kourmonen (for example) because I can still use my ships there, and I can dock and hide or repair if I need to. Plus, if it's a slow night I can do a plex right there in kourm and get LP. So if you get rid of station lock out then why would anyone ever defensive plex? Just take a system the enemy owns round robin style. You have already suggested that is what people might do, but you know that the minmatar have defensive plexes kourm and huola because we want to dock there even if it is time spent making no LP.
It would be interesting to to a LP value/ time spent plexing study. The amarr get to spend more time offensive plexing because they have fewer systems to defend while the minmatar have to spend more time plexing defensively and not getting lp because they want to keep docking rights. So minmatar have mostly been at control lv 2 and 3, getting 1/2 or 1 multiplier on LP stores, and amarr have gotten 1/4 that whole time. But if a given minamtar spend 50/50 time offensive and defensive pelxing to keep his systems, then he's getting 1/2 the lp per time as the amarr and the total time to isk value is much closer. Plus if amarr lp rewards are higher priced than minmatar because the cost more LP, then it could be very close in a time/isk ratio!
I'd like to see amarr opinions on whether it is worse to be locked out of stations in systems you would otherwise use, or to have bad lp store prices.
What if closing a plex works like it does now but the lp for it is 1/5 of current payout. But, pvp in an active plex pays 5x LP for the ship kill? Would that encourage pvp in plexes? would it be too exploitable?ReplyDelete
"So to me, if you get rid of station lock out then you have to give lp for defensive plexing. Otherwise no one would (or should) ever defensive plex."ReplyDelete
I agree people shouldn't defensive plex except in certain dire situations - like facing the humiliation of losing all your systems.
But I don't see this as a problem at all. You should defend your space in pvp by kicking out offensive plexers. The system shouldn't be geared to defend your space in pve by orbitting a button in a system your enemies can't even dock in.
Defensive plexing is boring and bad game play. CCP should not encourage and therefore reward that boring bad game play, by givng rewards for defensive plexing.
Yes you are right defensive plexing is dumb and you almost never should do it. I don't see the problem with that.
"The only reason you plex in the system you LIVE in is because you can dock there. What about the 55+ other systems the Minmatar owns? Do you defensively plex those systems?ReplyDelete
How does no LP for defensive plexing make defending systems easier? Especially in the 99% of systems we don’t live in?"
For those of us who can't be bothered to move all our stuff everytime a system flips we can't base out of the war zone anyway.
Having no lp for defensive plexing doesn't make defending systems easier. It makes it so are better off defending against the enemy before they capture a plex. Waiting until they finish their plexes has a penalty. If you get lp for defensive plexing waiting for them to finish a plex, and then just plexing it back after they leave gives a reward.
In sum giving no reward for defensive plexing encourages pvp. Giving lp for defensive plexing encourages pve.
good point, cearain. But you could base out of kamela and lamaa if you wanted. It is unlikly so far that those systems would fall. Kam has been easily defended for example. Plus, at least the amarr have faily easy options for high sec bases.Delete
I typically have 1 or 2 major bases and a several smaller bases. I am not going to move all my stuff to kamela and most of the ships I have in other parts of the warzone are just a headache to get out.Delete
I'm not really that interested in the types of combat we get in kamela with large fleets fighting at gates if either side feels they outnumber the other. Don't get me wrong its not bad. Its just that I was hoping faction war enhancements would bring so much more.
I prefer the types of fights I get in and and around dal. I miss the small gang pvp we used to get going up around frerstorn (which used to be a medium base for me). It no longer happens because there is no where to dock up there.
If you go to a plex and your in the wrong ship you need to do a 10 jump round trip. The person will probably finish the plex or leave by the time you come back.
Both amarr and minmatar have high sec bases. I think minmatar may actually have more.
I Like I said before I would rather they just did away with defensive plexing all together rather than give lp for it. If you want to fight for your system then you need to fight the people in the plex. Not wait for them to finish their plex and then run your own plex when there are no wts in system.
Yes that would lead to dramatic swings in who is winning. But that is ok and even good actually. Niether side would be looking to dominate forever. Instead it would be who can hold onto the systems the longest - through pvp.
minmatar have 0 high sec systems withing 2 jumps of kourm. amarr have many (4?) and the closest high sec minmtar have is 50% camped by isntalocking pirates. so if you mean to suggest that hek is somehow a good high sec base, you do realize that its like 20 jumps to the part of the warzone that is actually used even if it is only 3 jumps from a warzone system in general. so, if the minmatar wanted to base of out high sec and be close to the action but not in osogur because the 'tics camp the gate a lot then damalin is the only option. that's 1 system to base out of. one. and it is 5 jumps from kourm. and you still have to go through amamke. if we had 0 systems you can bet t he pirates would start camping both gates and minmatar would have to base out of gallente space or amarr highsec to even have a chance to get a ship into the warzone withought flying about 20 jumps. i guess if we owned 0 systems maybe evati and resbroko would be the hot areas instead of kourm because that stuff is closer to hek and amarr would be able to dock anywhere... but i think my point is still pretty clear. the amarr clearly and completely have the better high sec access situation to the war zone. not much of a consolation for having lost almost all your docking abilities inside the war zone, but still...Delete
Close to kourm. Yeah of course more amarr, its in our space.Delete
Thats like saying you have more high sec acess to aset.
Access to the "war zone" I disagree. I think its about even. Look at dotlan.
But the thing is we can have ships in stations in eachothers high sec. I am putting some of my ships in minmatar high sec. (have to watch the sec status) Not many because who knows ccp may change the rules there too.
well kourm is where the most action is, so that is why I named it. I can say access close to auga, which is in minmatar space, and the answer is the same. Amarr have more and better high sec access - more high sec gates within fewer jumps. Minmatar dont have any nearby highsec access to aset, in your example (i think there is a gallente high sec gate back there, or is it caldari? no one uses it and its not close to the front lines of the warzone -defined as where most of the combat actually happens). My point is that there is a middle area of the fw zone that gets used the most and the amarr access is better to that area. the minmatar have good access to the far back reaches of metropolis where hardly anyone ever goes, sure. But that dosen't help. Just the way the war zone is laid out has always bothered me because minmatar access is bad- it is split, either use amamke which is dangerous or use the far far back which gives ridiculous travel times. I mean, why did ccp make the main, major central minmatar access to the war zone in amamake which has been one of the most highly pirated systems in all of eve for years and years? It seems to me that amarr fw space is a series of loops with mulitple ways in and out whereas minmatar fw space is a long chain with a few pockets off it and the only entrances at one end or the other. At least kamela has like 4 high sec gates, not one. Overall it's a small point tho.Delete
Just curious, Cearain, are you trolling me comparing kourm to aset and I am just taking the bait? If you said auga, I would understand, but I still don't see how you dismiss the point I am making. Looking at dotlan maps and seeing that there are about the same number of high sec gates in the whole war zone for both sides in no way addresses the point I am making... Are you aware of how much of an impact the heretic camps of oso gate in amamke affect the minmatar milita? That is the direct route to Rens (and rens is a noticeably better market than hek)! If we could not dock in the warzone, that gate camp would be a huge deal and nothing like that challenge exists for t he amarr. We might end up fighting pirates in amamke as much or more than we would fight the amarr. Talk about not being able to reship for a certain size plex! Imagine if kamela did not have any high sec gates and Huola's high sec gate was the only nearby entrance to the warzone, and only direct route to amarr prime. Then say that it is camped by large pirate gangs 50% of the time (they are more and less active over time, but they never truly go way either). Sure people could go through high sec and enter near tzvi, adding 5 or 6 jumps to their trips in, but you can see the issue, right? Again I am not saying it is some massive problem that has to be addressed or anything, but I am surprised that you won't even recognize the issue exists for us.
No I am not trolling you.Delete
What you call the middle of the system is really just where the minmatar and amarr regions meet. But would you beleive that minmatar actually started out with more systems than amarr? I'm pretty sure that if you count up the 70 systems as a whole you will see that most of them are in minmatar regions.
So for amarr to reach 50% occupancy we need to capture allot of systems in minmatar space not just those in amarr space. You guys will be close to beign able to hit tier 4 even if you never capture a single system in amarr space.
So the front line was already prebuilt to favor minmatar - sort of - I admit this is very minor. I mean I really think overall its not that big of a deal. I think its fairly balanced actually. But yeah if I had to choose which side I wanted I would likely choose the minmatar, but its de minimis.
But yes I am comparing aset to kourm. Why? Because I think if amarr had to fight against the weak rats in their missions and plexes from the start I think that is where the front line would be. : ) But whatever thats a different issue.
You are correct that aset borders on Gallente not minmatar. But that is the same difference. Both have navys that will attack amarr militia.
But really my point, all around here, is that minmatar can put several plexing ships in amarr high sec. And amarr can do that in gallente and minmatar high sec. You don't really want to stay and fight in those high sec systems due to the navies but you can put ships there and repair there and warp back to the war zone.
I can't say I would do this if I were negative 10 thats why its not really a good option for my corp. I think concord is harder to deal with than a navy.(but even here I'm not sure) But if you have the sec status you definitely can do it. Just don't stay still get your ship and jump back into the warzone.
Basically I am trying to make the amarr aware of this because I really think most are so new to faction war they don't understand this mechanic. Thats why they think its important to defensive plex and hold onto "key systems" that aren't really "key" at all. But whatever, I'm an old guard bitter vet, in an old guard bitter vet corp, who has nothing of value to offer. : )
Ok, I see where you are comming from then. I did notice the minmatar war zone area is larger, and I thought it a bit odd. But I don't know that it matters much over all. I can check to see if aset is close to a gallente trade hub tho. To me, a high sec entrance is not worth much except as being a safe place to put ships if you lose systems in the war zone, and as a resupply point. And in the resupply area, being closer to a main trade hub is what is most valuable. In that regard, rens is the closest and most used hub for resupply that the minmatar have. It is also the one with access issues due to common piracy. I am curious what you think the role pirates play in affecting fw is. And if you would agree that if the minmatar lost systems and perhaps the front lines were now in aset, if you think, like I do, that the constant camps in amamke would hinder the minmatar quite a bit.Delete
You mentioned keeping ships in enemy high sec. Yeah it's only doable if you are not -5 or lower with your sec status. Concord is MUCH more difficult to avoid. They scram, navies do not. And they do it quickly. A -10 in highsec basically can only move interceptors and fast frigates, and it is not unheard of for those to be caught too. But otherwise, yeah, most milita people could do it. You just don't want to fight for very long in high sec that belongs to your enemy. You can move through it just fine.
I can't really speak for how minmatar gets supplies. I know I do it with alts that usually afk through high sec and then gear up for a short stint into low sec.Delete
Thats why I don't see an issue with planting a few plexing ships in all the high sec and non faction war entrance systems. (again if you are not a flashy.) Its not really to base there its just to have a place to dock repair and reship.
If you look at the map you will see that because of this there really are no "key" systems. Dal and Eszur might have been closest to what i would call key. But with all the high sec access around those systems its hard to even call that "key."
Akkio, Egg gratesier and perhaps other low sec non faction war entry ways can be a staging ground for flashies. So a militia should be able to have pilots easilly hitting just about every constellation even if one side takes all the fw systems.
I wonder if more pilots are like me and have zero alts, doing all their moving and hauling themselves or by contract, and how many are like you with neutral hauling alts. I haven't afk flown anything in years. I would guess you don't move your alt in a hauler through osogur gate in amamake, though!Delete
I know quite a few pilots who use hauling alts but I also know quite a few that pod to rens, fit up a ship off the market, mods ammo and all, then fly it back into the warzone. Many faction war pilots have only a handful of fit ships available at any one time. If they lose their rupture, they have to go to rens and fit up a new one!
Also, just the thought of flying four or five ships ten jumps and more to each different entrance system to be able to reship faster if I happened to be near there sounds dreadful and is not something I would ever want to do! I'm slowly starting to see just how different your and my game play styles really are. Just because both of us are in faction war doesn't mean that our needs or wants for the fw system really line up all that much.
If minmatar lost all fw systems, I would have my assets in one nearby system (maybe egg, maybe damelin, I don't know what I'd pick)and I would always go back there to reship. That's how it works form me now, too. I don't keep ships in kourm and dal and ashged and aset just to be able to reship for different plexers faster. If I go roaming in a frig, I fight stuff I can engage in a frig. If they only thing I find is something that I can't engage in my current ship, then I don't fight. Sometimes I engage less safely just because I'm here and so is the target! But keeping ships around for quick reships all over the war zone is more work than I want to do.
So the different ways we fly and think about assets and bases etc., really changes the way we think about the war zone as a whole and what we think are problems and not problems in the faction war system.
I used to have ships thoughout the warzone. I lose so many ships that if I had to pod to amarr and buy everything off the market again and again I would go crazy.Delete
I really think you would spend less time traveling and fitting ships if you do what I do. Use an afk hauler to bring allot of stuff at once.
Plus I love having a bunch of fitted ships ready to go.
Just like GSF they will bitch until they get the nerfs/adjustments that THEY want, in gsf's case titan and super nerfs, then they'll beat you. Once the Capital Assembly Arrays are gone in the south the only group you'll be able to get a super from is the cfc.ReplyDelete
Do you know how funny it would be to watch 100 titans drop onto one of your "epic" battles for kamala? Just to farm your tears?
Then, because the cfc and the rest are in it for lulz, and jul sec will be perma blue, your little area of space will become their source of amusement. If they're not amused they don't play, so once null sec is conquered they'll have to move on.
You should really start considering how encircled your little camp is has become. Especially considering that you're already having problems with the goon's pet alliance. Stand up and fight a battle that means something or watch the quality of your game play degrade as the goons recklessly manipulate the rest of eve.
INCLUDING THE ECONOMY WHICH IS TOTALLY FUCKED RIGHT NOW.
what are you talking about? I mean I get some of it, but what exactly are you suggesting is to be done? Stand up and fight a battle that means something? That makes no sense. Be concrete. If goons eventually destroy all of eve so there is no fun gameplay anywhere, then the game will die and CCP will cry. So be it. There's more to life than eve, if it comes to that, which i doubt it will.Delete