I didn’t really intend to write a ‘part two’ of my previous post but I quickly realized that in discussing various arguments people make for and against stabbed farming, I left out a rather important one.
That is, the argument regarding risk vs reward.
It is fairly common for people to say (or imply in some way) that stabbed farming is a risk vs reward issue, and that the ability to fit WCSs on a ship creates scenarios where people can farm ISK with little risk involved. (Some even claim that the ‘fix’ to all of this is to remove stabbed farmers’ LP rewards.)
The problem with this argument is that in order to receive a reward for plexing you must complete the plex. And Warp Core Stabilizers, in the context of stabbed farming, allow you to more easily leave the plex, if you want.
It’s a bit illogical to say that something that lets you leave your objective –and your reward! –is somehow making the achievement of that objective and reward less risky. In fact, the exact opposite is true.
Putting yourself at a disadvantage so that you cannot defend yourself or your plex is more risky to obtaining the rewards of a plex, than coming ready to stand your ground.
The primary risk of Faction War plexing comes from other players. Regardless of how you fit your ship or fly your ship, you are at very, very little risk from the NPCs that spawn within these plexes. Therefore, if no other player enters your system and comes to your plex to fight you, you are at little risk of losing the plex in general. (Unless you’re very, very bad.)
In the scenario where you have a stabbed plex farming running away from a pvper, the stabbed farmer makes ISK in the end because the pvper leaves, and the farmer is free to return to his plex and complete it.
Therefore, it could be argued that a problem with ‘risk’ in Faction War Plexing is NOT that stabbed farmers are unwilling to fight, but rather that pvpers are unwilling to plex.
Many have even suggested game mechanics that would produce some sort of punishment or consequence for running away, to ‘balance’ things. The most popular suggestion being a timer rollback.
There are multiple problems with this approach.
Firstly, when you punish ‘stabbed farmers’ you have to punish everyone. This means that people running away for what people would call ‘legitimate’ reasons would also be punished.
Secondly, the way timers work in Faction War are similar to a tug of war. Therefore, ‘punishing’ a plexer by counting the timer backwards also REWARDS the opposing militia, by removing the time they would typically have to spend to counter the hostile’s actions.
However, my primary response to the ‘timer rollback’ idea is to point out that CCP has already implemented a fully functional system that slowly rolls back the timer. If a member of the opposing militia overtakes the plex from a stabbed farmer, his presence will then begin to count the timer back toward his side. =)
If this opposing militia member does not wish to take the plex for himself, then that’s his problem. The same goes for neutrals who not only don’t want to plex, but also haven’t chosen to be involved in Faction War to begin with.
I really don't like the idea of "punishing" anyone. I'd prefer a system that allowed everyone to succeed at their goals and remove the false sense of safety that any module, or ship, or links, or whatever gives them. I want FW pilots to earn lots of LP and to have a great experience in the game doing what they like doing. Which really, in the big scheme of things, has very little to do with me and my ilk.ReplyDelete
Battlecruiser only plex are probably coming, along with Entosis activated mechanics. In addition, more than likely, WCS fitted ships will not be allowed entrance to plexes. Higher rewards for FW and ships that have to defend themselves to achieve those rewards. But also more control for the mechanics. Everyone wins.
"pvpers are unwilling to plex."ReplyDelete
Ta-DAH! Someone admits the truth, uncomfortable as it may be. No PVPer wants to waste hours upon hours grinding their way through 3000 victory points. We call mining soul-destroying, but at least you get something nice to look at! FW plexes are irredeemably ugly.
This is my suggestion: make it 300 victory points, or give 10x the VP reward. Nerf the number of complexes spawned.
Co-existence will force the PVPer to a, plex, and b, kill the farming alt that contests the plex.
This isn't to say that FW needs an entire new look at, because it does. It is hopefully, a good first step.
Now who is forcing their play-style on us?Delete
You're not a militia pilot though, are you. :PDelete
Think of this as "no pain, no gain" for the internet spaceship age. If you hate FW farmers that much, you should be willing to run the plex. Besides, there's force going both ways, not just one. Not that it excuses the 'force' aspect.
I would disagree that this was 'forcing' people to plex though, despite the word I used. It would merely make it non-optimal to abandon a plex to be closed by a defensive plexer. If you want the rewards of FW, you should be taking part in all of FW. When there's only one waterhole, don't you think that people would fight more? You might even get some interesting by play with pirates fighting to keep their pvp arenas open.
Rob K, (pondering why he hasn't written a blog post on the latest phenomena)
I don't hate anyone. And I have often sat inside a plex wondering why I can't run it down and collect LP while I wait.Delete
Oh dear, another example of poor communication skills on my part. the 'hate FW farmers that much' line was in reference to the militia pilots who whine their way through the day. I thought I'd linked it with "rewards of FW" well enough, but I obviously need to learn more clarity.Delete
Similarly, I agree with you on the 'Pirates running down plexes' front, but don't think CCP is willing to go *that* free-form with FW. It is one of the reasons I'm training up an alt at the moment, so I can get the reward for clearing the plex on one account, at least.
It one of the keen things at plague me from time to time. When someone ganks a miner - it's more common that they have no interest minerals or industry. Yet is deemed to be PvP in fashion. But you do not have to be a rival competitor to enter the contest, so to speak. Yet it appears similar with FW here - I am assuming correctly that Rixx has no vested interest in the outcome faction warfare - it is thus convenience to locate targets. I have never really viewed Eve as a free-for-all.ReplyDelete
Would it make any difference if you needed to be a militia member to enter the sites?
You'd hear a huge outcry from all the poor Pirates who can no longer gank their way through the day. Militia Plexes are basically an easy way to find people to fight, sans the interference of Gate-guns and Station-guns.Delete
It would go a long way to limiting frigate PVP in the game, and would really buff kiting vs brawling frigate. (Read 'MORE GARMURS', which nobody wants). Admittedly, that also means garmurs get more expensive, and thus more money for low-sec, but yeah.
Finally, I reckon that Pirates 'cull the herd' of afk Farmers, normally stabbed. With no more pirates, farming becomes less risky, and the war-zone has a much bigger swing effect. Pirates, I expect, stabilise the swing a little. (That, however, is anecdotal.)
I've had several characters in faction warfare over the last 3 years. During all that time I never ran missions until recently. I was invited in to a mission running fleet to earn LP - our faction is currently at T3 so the LP rewards for running missions is better than plexing. Anyway I asked the FC what ship should I fly and he says "bring a bomber with a cloak that way we can run missions relatively unmolested." If there's an issue with WCS and farmers, shouldn't the same issue be with mission runners using cloaked bombers? I say let the players fit their ships anyway they want and let's quit trying to adjust someone else's game play to suit our desires...ReplyDelete
That isn't the issue. As players we have a long and storied history of demanding better game play from CCP in all areas of Eve. As I've said a million times, WCS are not the issue - FW game mechanics that allow them to be the default lazy crutch wearing fall-back to earn LP is the issue. In my opinion, cloaked bombers running a mission site isn't a broken mechanic since that is an excellent use of them.Delete
Cloaked bombers are example of how fantastically players can mitigate risk within EVE, using available tools. If I had the skills, I'd love to see comparisons between FW and non-FW space on bomber deaths. I wonder if (and suspect that) Bombers die more frequently outside FW space, despite their massively increased usage. As for the brokenness, I disagree with Rixx. If we're using risk/reward metrics, then it is broken.Delete
In short, Players don't want to see lazy game-play, and hate lazy mechanics.
FW mission bombers are really easy to kill as long as you know what you are doing. Sit in one of the systems that spawn missions and as soon as a plex opens you warp there with a warp speed rigged garmur or any interceptor and kill them when they land.Delete
"I don't hate anyone. And I have often sat inside a plex wondering why I can't run it down and collect LP while I wait." - RixxReplyDelete
Simple solution Rixx, join militia.
It's important to notice that there are a lot of resentiments from the non-PvP crowd against anyone that has a killboard.ReplyDelete
By default PvPers are grievous gamers only looking for cheap kills. Arguments are ignored, discussions quickly go ad hominem.
A very vocal minority on the edge of trolling derails any fruitful exchange of thoughts.
I'm not sure who you are referring to as the non-PVP crowd with "a lot of resentiments". If it was my comment about joining militia, here's my KB: https://zkillboard.com/character/93062508/ReplyDelete
Not the best, but certainly not the worst.
I am looking to start farming. i have a couple of questions.ReplyDelete
what is stabbed farmer? ship and fit
what faction should i fight for? does it even matter?
how fast can i get into. this is going to be an brand new alt